The Nightmare Before Christmas
Tim Burton is currently filming a live-action version of Alice in Wonderland for Disney starring Johnny Depp and Anne Hathaway, and I know I should be excited because it’s another high-profile fantasy film, based on one of my favorite children’s books.
I should be excited, but I’m not, because I can say with almost absolute certainty that while Alice in Wonderland will look amazing, it will be a terrible movie.
Why? Because Tim Burton in the director.
First, let me concede a couple of things up front: Burton has a great, almost revolutionary visual style. Whether or not he was personally responsible for the terrific look of the stop-motion films such as Tim Burton’s The Nightmare Before Christmas that bear his name (which is apparently debatable), there’s no question that he’s brought an incredible aesthetic to moviegoers in films such as Sleepy Hollow , Beetle Juice, and Edward Scissorshands.
And these three at least are actually great movies, among my favorites of all time.
Tim Burton
But a great visual style does not a great director make. And as this particular director has become more powerful, with presumably more input over his scripts, his movies have become increasingly incoherent.
Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, the book by Roald Dahl, is admittedly high on concept but light on plot. But for the first thirty minutes of Burton’s 2005 film version, the director managed to find the story.
But then the kids enter the chocolate factory, Charlie virtually disappears from the plot, and the whole film sinks in a river of oppressive musical numbers and a thoroughly unappealing, decidedly unmagical Willy Wonka. And what a crappy ending! Wonka makes chocolate because his dentist father wouldn’t let him eat candy — and it’s up to Charlie to help Wonka reconcile with his father? Really?
Then there is the trio of stop-motion animated films that bear Burton’s name: Nightmare, James and the Giant Peach, and Tim Burton’s Corpse Bride. Nightmare is by far the most successful of the three, and the film has an admittedly terrific central conceit with one holiday “town” infiltrating another, not to mention fantastic songs. But then, right on schedule, the plot frustrations begin. Why do Lock, Stock, and Barrel deliver Santa to Oogie Boogie? Why is Jack so clueless as to think that kids will appreciate his macabre presents? How does he survive the crash after the military shoot him down?
It’s hard to care about a story when you get the sense that even the director doesn’t care.
And let’s not even get started on the remake of The Planet of the Apes, okay? And Big Fish? Honestly, did that make sense to anyone?
There is risky, sophisticated storytelling, and there’s just plain sloppy writing, like the director had other things to think about rather than story. Which Burton obviously does — the visual “look” of the films, which is always flawless.
Often Burton’s films aren’t just incoherent, they’re actually unpleasant to sit through, like he’s literally decided to punish the audience for some reason. Burton seems to be deliberately trying to disgust us in Batman Returns.
Burton’s worst film is probably Mars Attacks!, which managed to waste one of the most amazing casts ever assembled (Glenn Close, Annette Benning, Jack Black, Michael J. Fox, Jack fricking Nicholson, etc.?) with scene after scene of aliens, well, attacking, and a litany of boorish, unfunny jokes.
Mars Attacks
Burton’s frequent misfires rarely connect with audiences, but inexplicably, they’re often well-reviewed by critics. No doubt this goes back to their visual style, which is admittedly stunning. It’s impossible not to be impressed by the technical wizardry, and I suppose some credit is due to Burton because of this. Indeed, Ed Wood was so visually impressive, and the subject matter was so unorthodox, that it was almost enough to forgive the film for having yet another terrible, incoherent screenplay.
Almost.
Isn’t the point of atmosphere and visual effects is to serve the story? They’re far too often lacking in a Tim Burton film, and it’s high time the world started calling him on it.
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Ouch!
Ouch is right! I liked Nightmare Before Christmas, agree with the author on just about all the other movies.
This should be taken down. ^^I’m not reading it.
Truly, someone had to say it.
Agreed for the most part. I disagree with Nightmare and Ed Wood though, they’re both awesome as they are.
I agree with you Brent. Of the 21 movies that Burton’s directed, I only watched 29% of his movies, leaving 15 movies that I wasn’t even interested in. I would pay to see it in the theaters. I won’t even rent the movies.
Of the 29% of Burton movies I did see, I liked the movies for the most part. I think my average rating was 3.5 stars, using a Netflix rating approach (1 being “hated it” and 5 meaning “loved it). I don’t understand why Burton continues to have this aura around him.
I will never ever forgive him for ruining Planet of the Apes. I thought Nightmare was an interesting miss, but Mars Attacks was another disaster. Definitely overrated!
I agree with your assessments completely. I really really liked so much of NIGHTMARE, but ulitimately it didn’t quite work (even though I own and LOVE the soundtrack).
I will admit that I’ve never seen Ed Wood or Mars attacks, but I disagree with basically everything else you said. I think that every single one of these movies is exactly what it’s advertised to be. I was still in elementary school when Nightmare Before Christmas came out and I remember it was generally aimed at a younger audience. Therefore, simple plots should be acceptable. For example, “How did he survive getting shot down?” He’s a singing dancing skeleton flying around in a magical sleigh pulled by skeleton reindeer and a ghost dog, are we really trying to force reality and logic on the situation.
Side Note: Do you watch Doctor Who a specific quote is coming to mind…
Mickey Smith: What’s a horse doing on a spaceship?
Doctor: What’s 17th Century France doing on a Spaceship, get some perspective Mickey!
Also, Big Fish made perfect sense to me, I’d be happy to explain the plot and themes to you as I saw them!
I could rip apart almost every movie in the universe that deals with anything deeper than your average chick flick and point out all the plot holes, the point is, that everything else is done well enough that you ignore the plots that occaisionally look like swiss cheese.
O_o Please tell me that that “Mars Attacks” screenshot is actually a really bad movie manip. And, if he really did that to Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, WHY?!?! I swear, that book has the worst luck being made into movies… Anyway, I also don’t like Tim Burton, his animation style weirds me out and he makes movies that are too creepy for me. I think I saw part of James and the Giant Peach once, but I’m trying to remember if I was on cold medicine or not since that movie did not make sense…
It’s a screenshot. Sorry!
It’s seems that there is a huge crowd insanely loving Tim Burton films and then there are just as big a population who think they are creepy and weird. Anyway I truly hope that Tim Burton will excell this time with making the Alice in Wonderland movie. I for one will be going to the opening of the film in Australia, since I can’t wait it to be ready and on screens. I don’t think Burton with such a great cast that he has gathered will disappoint us, just the contrary.
I have heard of Tim Burton doing a take on Alice in Wonderland, and it happens to be one of my favourite children’s books. The main thing about this movie I am not happy with is that Disney will be releasing it, and they’re already well-known for their 1951 classic cartoon version, which I happen to love very much, even though it is nothing compared to the book. I was excited about it at first, but after hearing of Disney, I disapproved of it. I have seen some of Tim Burton’s movies like Planet of the Apes, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. My sister also owns some of his movies like Edward Scissorhands and Sleepy Hollow (my sister is actually a Johnny Depp fan, I’m not). I have also been dying to watch the two Batman movies that he directed since I am a Batman fan as well as an Alice in Wonderland fan. I have been thinking overtime about seeing Tim Burton’s take on Alice in Wonderland or not. Tim Burton is quite a proficient movie maker, but it kind of seems he wants to make more money than anything else nowadays. I do have to agree with you there Drake Hunter. I seem to think that Tim Burton is like some kind of god among the youth of today, no wonder teens and kids (also young adults) seem to constantly talk about him and that his movies appeal highly to them, and is also a reason why some out there say he’s overrated. I know his Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, even though it did a better job on the source material, didn’t top the original 1971 movie (titled Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory), so I hope his Alice in Wonderland won’t be so different with Disney’s cartoon film, even if it does a better job on the book. It doesn’t even matter really whether a movie is true to the source material or not or even a perfect version of it that it gets to be a good movie, no matter how popular the source material is (not to anyone apart from purists). Today’s movies may be more serious to books than to older movies until the 1980s, but most don’t get as good ratings as the older movies. The reason I think most people are excited about this new movie and that Alice in Wonderland is becoming more popular than ever is because of Tim Burton himself. I also one-time wondered why Disney wanted another Alice in Wonderland movie. Is it because of Uncle Walt’s dislike for it? Or is it for box-office success, to make money? Some of the things I have heard towards the new movie is that there will be a bit of a love story between the Mad Hatter and Alice, according to a Digital Spy news report on actress Dakota Blue Richards, who wanted to play Alice in the new movie, and Dakota said that it was going to happen. I have also heard that the character Anne Hathaway will be playing (the White Queen) will get banished by her sister, the Red Queen (who is going to be played by none other than Helena Bonham Carter) and goes to Alice for help. I also thought it was sick when I heard an adult was going to be Alice because in the original book, she is only a 7 year-old little girl. I thought, “She’s too old to play Alice.” The girl who is going to play Alice in the movie I have heard is only one year younger than me and she hails from the same country I do. The good thing about Disney’s cartoon movie is that it’s part of a highly famous album/movie sync called “Alice on the Wall” which is that movie combined with Pink Floyd’s 1979 double album rock opera “The Wall.” It’s a good thing Pink Floyd wrote the album to synchronize with the movie because it might help the movie stay the best known movie version of Alice in Wonderland. I also thought Anne Hathaway is a bit too young to be The White Queen because in the second book, she is an old lady, and Anne Hathaway is only in her 20s. The public will think his movie of Alice in Wonderland will be a remake of the classic Disney cartoon, but it’s not actually. Besides, Tim Burton despises that movie like he despised the first Charlie and the Chocolate Factory movie, so yeah, it won’t be a remake. That’s all I have to say.
I’ve always said that Tim Burton is a visual genius. When it comes to creating beautiful, stunning, and memorable visuals, he is truly a genius in the strictest, albeit narrowly focused, sense. However, the vast majority of his films are not hurt by being put on mute.
There are exceptions: Edward Scissorhands, Ed Wood. Oh, and Big Fish. For shame, sir.
I’ll reluctantly give you ED WOOD, but we must agree to disagree regarding BIG FISH.
I generally agree with you. I have a generally negative view of Tim Burton films, just because I don’t like the style very much. I think he totally ruined Charlie and the Chocolate Factory - people will always remember the original - and I didn’t like Nightmare.
So when I saw that he directed James and the Giant Peach and Mars Attacks!, I thought “Oh”, as I like both of these movies (though I preferred them when I was younger).
Very, very mixed. To me, Ed Wood is a classic; but for every film of the calibre of that or Sleepy Hollow or Edward Scissorhands, he’s made a Big Fish or Planet of the Apes. He IS capable of brilliance on more than just the visual plain, but he’s had some serious misses.
Alas, he seems to be getting worse though. And I wonder if that’s because he has more control now.
Another thing I have heard about the new Alice in Wonderland movie, a report said: “Tim Burton has had plans for Alice in Wonderland since before he was famous.” And in his one of his interviews, Tim Burton said: “It’s a funny project. It’s confusing that none of them seem to get it right. So I think it’s an interesting challenge to direct.”
(Not exactly but something like that.) From what I have heard of that, it seems Tim Burton mostly had the visuals planned for it. He hasn’t done the story yet by that time, so I also have to agree with you Duncan Hunter (I thought it was Drake Hunter as I first saw the top of your article).
Another thing I have now heard about the new Alice in Wonderland movie is it is not actually going to be a new version of Alice in Wonderland. It will have the essences, characters and narrative elements from the book, but Tim Burton is actually going to tell a new story. It’s sort of like a sequel to the two Alice books that Lewis Carroll wrote. Here it is:
As reported in the March 2009 edition of D23 magazine, the movie will incorporate many characters and narrative elements from Carroll’s books but is essentially a new story, Alice’s return to Wonderland. Tim Burton states that “given what this story is, if Alice had this adventure as a little girl and now she’s going back all these years later, it’s a bit overgrown…[and there’s] a slightly haunted quality to Wonderland, even though it’s got strong elements of color.” She is now 17 years old and someone “who doesn’t quite fit into Victorian society and structure.” This journey “becomes a rite of passage as she discovers her voice and herself.”
That’s what the movie is going to be about.
I have to agree on the incoherency of plot on many of his films EXCEPT FOR Nightmare and Big Fish.
First off, let me indicate that I am one of the many Burton fans who loves his visual style, an interesting degree of creativity, production design, theme, and macabre sense of humor.
Now, let me defend, quite briefly I hope, both The Nightmare Before Christmas and Big Fish.
With Nightmare, you are consistently told that Lock, Stock, and Barrel are Oogie Boogie’s henchmen. They are questionable characters when first introduced and even distrusted because of their affiliation with Oogie Boogie. The fact that they cross their fingers reveals that they always had the intention to betray Jack. Then Ooogie Boogie shows that he has well laid out plans for taking over. I think those all go hand-in-hand and make sense to me. The fact that Jack seems to trust them to begin with is the bigger plot hole, and I think that he is so blinded with his desire to be “Sandy Claws” should be evidence enough of his willingness to trust them. And, come on, do you not get that he’s so wrapped up in the world he’s from that he cannot realize that children from a world closer to the one we live in would be freaked out? If I go to another country outside of the United States and shake someone’s hand with my left hand, there is a modest chance that I will offend someone with my good-hearted gesture because of the left hand as the feces-wiping hand. Yeah, it’s an odd example, but the fact that two people from different places have different ways of understanding something is hardly an incoherent plot point in real life. Last, and I believe someone has clarified this in a better way than I could, old skellybones Jack surviving would kind of go with his being undead. If a kid understands this, great. If not, hurrah! The hero lives!
Now for Big Fish, you don’t really provide enough example for me to know why it’s a disappointment to you. The narrative is pretty straightforward - on a father’s deathbed, a son tries to sort the truth from the stories his father tells him throughout his life. The only somewhat confusing part I can think of is the “witch” character. Even then, to debate that point endlessly would also be a shame. Would it not be okay for her to have been one of the lies the father tells? Little enough of what the father says in his stories is substantiated that we should be led to believe otherwise. Instead, I see her as a device to help the father wrap up his own life - his foretold death that is made up by the son has a circular logic to it, but I don’t think it really needs to be spelled out for the audience.
That being said, I can certainly see where movies fall apart such as The Planet of the Apes and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.
Inasmuch being retellings of original works, they try too hard to distance themselves from other precedents and can be altogether confusing. Despite this, at least in the case of Charlie in the Charlie Factory, I enjoyed it thoroughly. Charlie’s story is decreased and the other children’s are expanded. That’s not a big problem for me, though I admit it can be a flaw for others. The Oompa Loompa segments were over-the-top which, to me, broke the narrative a little too much, and I can only hope that enough people regard it as an homage to the previous film rendition of the book. And yes, Willy Wonka’s storyline is expanded by a great deal, a move that I think would be greatly appreciated. Don’t get me wrong: I love Gene Wilder Willy Wonka. The first movie is still my favorite. Nevertheless, the Burton version of the film fulfills the audiences curiosity that has never been addressed well on camera.
Now for those themes that I keep talking about. I again agree that some movies no longer bear the same kind of coherent and complete plot. However, most of his films, I feel, deal with the key theme of negotiating duality. This, by the way, sucks as someone else wrote a book about his body of work in similar terms as I am expressing before I got to it. Jerk. In any case, most of his films deal with a key character or characters who are straddling two different worlds, often as an outsider to one, the other, or both. This comes up primarily in life and death (Beetle Juice, Nightmare, Corpse Bride, and to some degree Frankenweenie). The “normal” people versus the strange outsider in Edward Scissorshands, fact and fiction in Big Fish, human and non-human in Planet of the Apes, science and mystical in Sleepy Hollow. Oh, and Batman? The double lives thing really works for this theme. And yes, Alice in Wonderland will almost certainly play into this as well in its exploration of two different worlds, the mundane versus a fantastic dream. I’m sure he’d remake The Wizard of Oz if he could put his own sense of humor onto it (and I’m sure he’d never be able to because it would crush so many people’s memories).
So, to say that he is “Waaaaaay Over-Rated” is not completely wrong, and there are deadheads like myself who worship the ground he walks on. However, I think your analyses of Nightmare and Big Fish are lacking, and the credit to theme is insufficient.
He’s my favorite director. Can you tell yet?
it is interesting that the two films you mentioned to do with the incoherency of of the film were actually NOT written by Tim Burton, nightmre he producted, and Big Fish is based on a novel.
LOL! Love it! Nice defense (but I don’t quite agree).
That’s cool. I just wanted to present alternatives and points I thought were unclarified, miconstrued, or possibly wrong altogether.
Also, frankly, I was looking for something to distract me from making a presentation (one I am still putting off..) and ended up rambling.
As a point of curiosity, I would love to hear any problems with my ideas and theories based essentially off of movie-watching and not scholarly analysis or any of Burton’s actual words that I know of.
Let me also concede that I spend a fair amount of time speculating only on Burton independently whereas this site has a much broader scope than my own thoughts. I just happened upon it while on imdb. In other words, I don’t mean to harsh on you, dude.
when veiwing Charlie and the chocolate factory, i was discusted that Tim Burton added his own backstory to Willie Wonka, and the adaption to almost all of the songs in the film. seeing as his job was made easyer as the song lyrics itself are actually written in the book. This was unnessisary and distracted true lovers of the story away from the plot. Although it is common to adapt films such as this, it is disapointing to see such a failure in a box office hit, and in such a well known film.
\”How did he survive getting shot down?\”
OMG, Jack Skellington was already dead xD Get it? He couldn\’t be destroyed.
Anyway, Tim Burton is a visually director, he doesn\’t really care about logical scripts. He\’s also very surreal, and surrealism isn\’t really logical. And I think Mars Attack! is one of the greatest comedies ever, with its absurd humor. It\’s like a Monty Python show.
As for Planet of the Apes, he discribes it as his worst experience ever. The studio changed everything in the film.
lol shut up.
tim burton is awesome.
would like to see you do better.
although, that would be rather impossible due to your dry writing talents.
And how can Willy Wonka not have a plot? its off a bloody book. the book is a plot you idiot.
His movies are awesome, and if you don\’t like it, then get over it, no need to sook about it.
guess it was a slow day at the office.
have a nice day
toodle a loo !
You’re wrong about almost all of these. They’re all great movies, except Planet of the Apes and Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, which both sucked. Even Mars Attacks has a weird camp-nightmarish quality which most reviewers (you included, it seems) didn’t quite get, and is really fun to watch. I think the rule of thumb is that Burton loses it when he’s doing remakes- therefore, Alice In Wonderland could be awful. Then again, the Burton Batmans were both amazing, so, you never know…
Has NOBODY seen Sweeney Todd? I know it’s just a film adaptation of a stage play, but come on, it’s still directed by Tim Burton.
Is it that it just wasn’t worth mentioning or has nobody on here even seen it? The movie is amazing. Everything about it is. It’s probably the best thing to ever come out of that cesspool known as Tim Burton that isn’t Big Fish or Ed Wood.
On the note of why Jack trust Lock, Shock, and Barrel in NBC is an easy answer: It’s not that he trusts them, it’s that they are the most capable of doing the job he needs. Those three are basically the spiritual embodiment of “Trick or Treat”. Now, for the presents, remember that the residents of Halloweentown made most of them and they were even MORE clueless about Christmas than Jack was (The lines from “Making Christmas” where one resident wants to just send a rotting rat corpse as a gift requires Jack’s intervention). He couldn’t have been watching ALL the gift making so you can only imagine the gifts we DIDN’T see in the movie.
Also, if you’re a Nightmare fan, you should definitely check out the Nightmare Revisisted album. It’s a cover album of the whole soundtrack. Very impressive (KoRn does ‘Kidnap the Sandy Claws’, nuff said)
speaking of sloppy writing, try proof-reading your own article.
Duncan or Brent, would you please post a list of the movies you directed and/or produced? Maybe wrote the screen play for? I would like to see what you think is a good movie, made with your own imagination.
Tim Burton is a great director/producer because people still pay to see his movies in great numbers. For every one of you who “don’t get it” there are hundreds who do.
It is easy to sit back and criticize, but until you have walked the walk, how can your critique carry any weight?
Oh, Lord, it’s a critical OPINION site. This is what we do–we write opinions.
It’s fine to disagree–hey, we encourage that. But to say, “Well, what movies have YOU written?” as if to say the only people who can criticize or talk negatively about movies are those who have written them, is ridiculous.
As for movies we like, there are reviews of dozens of them all over this site.